Embracing Conflict with Merry Brown

Carrie:

Where is he?

Shea:

Oh, okay. Gotta do this podcast again. Let's do it.

Carrie:

You know, I've got something for you.

Shea:

What is that?

Carrie:

“Be late to meetings.” Advice on how to be unprofessional.

Shea:

Well, here I am. Let's get into it. How to Be Unprofessional at Work.

Carrie:

Well, you're succeeding.

Shea:

That's what the book's about, right?

Carrie:

I know. So our guest, Merry Brown.

Shea:

Yes. She wrote this book, How to be Unprofessional at Work, and she's writing a new book we'll find out more about, about how we can really solve conflict in the workplace and manage it well?

Carrie:

Yes, I love this topic, and we can talk about it all day, but I'd rather her tell us about it. She’s the professional.

Shea:

And I won't be late again.

Carrie:

Our guest today is Merry Brown, a workplace mediator, trainer, and host of the Conflict Managed podcast. Welcome to Pocket Change, Merry!

Merry Brown:

Thank you for having me. I'm so glad to be here.

Carrie:

Yes, so tell us about yourself and what led you into mediation and workplace conflict resolution?

Merry Brown:

Well, I've been living in Martin, Tennessee since 2002. We came for the University of Tennessee at Martin, and I taught philosophy there for 17 years, and five years in Saint Louis. And right around, Mid-Pandemic I, and I had been feeling like I wanted to do something else. While I love teaching, and I love philosophy, I just knew I wanted something else for the second half of my career. And, in 2018, I had become a listed mediator, a Rule 31 mediator. And so, I just really saw with the pandemic, the world is flat. And so, I wasn't going to be leaving Martin. And so, I thought, well, I will quit my job and start mediation. And a few months after that, I started my own business, Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services.

Carrie:

Wow. That's awesome.

Shea:

Got a podcast to go along with that too, and we'll talk more about that. But started a few new things all at that same time.

Merry Brown:

Yes.

Shea:

Yeah. And so what are the biggest misconceptions about conflict?

Merry Brown:

I think one of the biggest misconceptions is when we hear conflict, we hear negative. “Conflict is bad.” But that's unmanaged conflict. Conflict, if it's managed, is actually really good. We need conflict to have engagement and creativity and collaboration. And if we all thought the same thing, you know, what's the outcome going to be? And so, to really take advantage of all of the knowledge and experience that people on our teams or in our families have, we need to be able to manage conflict well. So, I think that's the biggest misconception, that conflict is to be avoided. That it’s bad. Something has gone wrong. But rather, conflict is normal and expected. We're going to have it. We know it. So, we need to develop those skills in order to have it be fruitful conflict.

Carrie:

That's right. So, do you think that workplace conflict is more common now, or do you think it's that we're just more aware of it?

Merry Brown:

It's a really good question. I'm not entirely sure. I think in some ways it's, more overtly common, because we're more used to speaking up a little bit. We have maybe different standards of the rights of workers in the work environment. And with change in leadership dynamics from a control and command where you got the leader and everybody else is the minion, and you just to do what you're told. When there's more of an emphasis on really wanting the creativity and the expertise and a healthy work environment, then people are going to be more likely to speak up when things aren't working for them. So, I think it's probably always been, and some things are less now when we think about the harassment that used to take place and just work environment and industrial revolution. So things are better, but then there are higher expectations of standards of treatment of people.

Carrie:

Yes, I can see that. And I also think that the awareness with social media being put out there helps too, because beforehand, without social media, sometimes you just did not know that what you were experiencing was not okay. So yeah, I agree with you.

Merry Brown:

Yeah, absolutely.

Shea:

So what would be your top tips for employers who want to mediate conflict in their workplaces?

Merry Brown:

My top tip is make it a strategic priority. Conflict is here. You've had it before and have it right now. You'll have it in the future. And if you manage it well, you are positioning your business to flourish now and into the future. And if you decide to not make it a strategic priority, you're still going to have it, but it will be mismanaged and you will lose money. You will lose people. You'll lose in the marketplace. Innovation. There's so many ways in which you lose out. It costs so much if you don't deal with it. So, know that you're going to have it. And the wonderful thing is that, you know, a lot of people think they're conflict averse. They're bad at it. Well that's okay! You can get better at it! It's one of those things, it's not like I'm born with this disposition or I'm not. You can actually develop it. So have a plan. Empower your people from the part-time seasonal worker all the way up to deal with their own conflict, but then have mechanisms all the way along the line so that people's real issues can be addressed early, often, swiftly, and justly.

Carrie:

That's powerful.

Shea:

That’s right.

Carrie:

So, what advice would you give to managers to help their employees improve?

Merry Brown:

For a manager, I would say work on yourself. Managers really need to be reflective. So, if there's something going wrong, stop and pause and see, “What am I doing? How am I speaking into the people that report to me? What kind of conditions am I setting here?” Because conflict, a lot of times, we think it's external. It's about the issue. Somebody is late. But it's very rarely about the issue. It's about me and my relationship to that person in my relationship at this time. How I'm showing up, they're showing up. There's the system in the organization. So, a good leader is going to be reflective. A good manager is going to be reflective, not reactive and set the tone so that, so that they will manage conflict.

Carrie:

It's kind of like parenting, right? We kind of set the tone in our homes. If we come in and we're in a bad mood, it's going to trickle down to our children and, you know, they start being fussy. But if we set the tone of the standard of what we expect in our home and that we're going to treat each other well, then they usually do the same.

Merry Brown:

Absolutely.

Carrie:

Pretty simple.

Merry Brown:

Yeah. Tone and setting expectations. And so, my expectation is that we're going to treat everybody well. We're colleagues here. We're going to collaborate. We will have mistakes. We will have, people have bad days, and we'll deal with it. And we will all be respectful. So basic civility, if that's my expectation, and that's how I show up, then now people will usually rise or fall to the expectations around them. So if you set high expectations, then you're going to more likely have a healthy work environment.

Shea:

So sometimes there may be a situation where, you know, an employee's feeling ignored by their supervisor in the workplace. What advice would you give that person?

Merry Brown:

It's kind of similar, you want to stop and figure out, okay, “I feel ignored. What do I mean by that? In what way am I ignored? If I've been passed over for, promotions? Am I not being listened to in meetings? If I'm not being included, am I? What? What do I mean by ignored?” And getting really clear about that and then figuring out, well, if my boss is not responding to my communication, write it out. How have I been communicating? Then try a different way. And then try another way, and de-escalate yourself in your emotions. Emotions are really good information, but we don't need to act in our emotions but say, “Okay, this is a puzzle to be solved. How can I communicate in a fruitful way with my boss? How does he or she want to be communicated with?” So maybe my favorite way is face to face, but I’m met with resistance. Try something else. Figure out what it is. Because you and your boss ultimately have the same goal, which is the success of the organization because if the organization fails, you're out of jobs, right?

Carrie:

That's great. So, what is your advice for building strong culture in a tough environment?

Merry Brown:

I think you have to have a vision, right? If you say we're going to have a good environment here, we're all going to be respectful, we're all going to – well, what does that really mean? It can't just be platitudes on the wall. How can we expect people to show up in the everyday? How do we deal with mistakes? Are we going to be punitive and look at the past and blame and shame? Or are we going to take moments and think, “Okay, well, what do we need to do to make this right, and what can we do in the future so that these sorts of things don't happen?” What do the people in your organization right now want? Not what do I want. So, if I love swag and so I get my people swag, but they don't like swag, it's like almost worse than a gift. It's a non-gift. It's tone deaf.

Carrie:

A non-gift. I like that.

Merry Brown:

You know, that pizza party sort of thing. So, ask people. They will tell you. And the more you ask them, “What can I do for you? What do you need to be successful?” Then they're used to you being there. And you're setting this tone where we are all in it together. We're all trying to have a good environment.

Carrie:

That's great.

Shea:

Yeah. I'll take the pizza party for me. So you have your own podcast you mentioned. So tell us about that and how you got started podcasting.

Merry Brown:

Yeah, it's called Conflict Managed. And it comes out every Tuesday. And I interview people locally, so in West Tennessee, and then nationally and internationally. All different kinds of people. People at the beginning of their career. I've interviewed two of my own kids. People at the end of their career, all different fields. I'm very interested in people's experience - what has gone well and why and what has gone wrong, and then people reminiscing about what they would do differently if anything, now. So this whole idea of growth and development, and my hope with the podcast is that - you know, people find themselves in really, really awful situations at work. There's a lot of pain and harm, things that are not necessarily illegal behavior, but really difficult behaviors. So, it's very disempowering. And so, I want people to listen to the podcast and be empowered and imagine for themselves, “What can I do?” And there is something that you can do. And so, I got started in May of 2022. A recent episode was with Jessica Childress. She's an employment lawyer in Washington DC. I just interview all different kinds of people to hear about their advice and learning from them so that we can all learn together. And my whole goal of talking about conflict is healthy work environments.

Carrie:

And a lot of times it just stems from having a conversation.

Merry Brown:

Right.

Carrie:

We learn so much from each other if we just listen.

Merry Brown:

Yes 100%.

Shea:

So, where can we find your podcast?

Merry Brown:

You can find the podcast wherever you listen to any podcast. You can go to my website which is 3pconflictrestoration.com. And there's a tab there and you can find it. But it's on Apple, Spotify. It's also on YouTube if you want to watch it.

Shea:

So, just subscribe to Pocket Change and Conflict Managed.

Carrie:

Okay. So, what projects are you currently working on?

Merry Brown:

Well, right now I'm working on a new book, it’s in the editing process, it should be coming out hopefully - well, it will be out in in January of 2026. It's called Winning the Generation Wars at Work: Making Your Age an Asset.

Carrie:

Wow.

Merry Brown:

So, I do a lot of training on healthy work environments and how to have difficult conversations. And I hear from all different kinds of people, “How do I work with them?” Meaning the younger generation, the older generation, the generation in the middle, they're so different. “What am I supposed to do?” And this book really came from hearing it again and again. And I hope that you enjoy it. I have a simple solution, and it's a very everyday solution. You have to read it to find out what it is.

Carrie:

I can’t wait!

Merry Brown:

But the difficulty’s in doing it.

Carrie:

Would you mind kind of given us some highlights of your other book, How to Be Unprofessional at Work? Right. I was like, what was the name of it? Yes.

Merry Brown:

How to Be Unprofessional at Work: Tips to Ensure Failure.

Carrie:

I love that.

Merry Brown:

It's eighty tips of what not to do and considers what to do instead to have a healthy work environment. And so that book came about because, I am not a guru of all things professional, but I do know when something isn't. And that's part of my philosophy background, called knowledge via the negative way. If you don't know what something is like, say you're doing philosophy of religion. Maybe you're not exactly sure what God is, but we can say what God isn't. Or if you're not exactly sure what the good life is, you can say, well, it's not that. And so I thought that would be an interesting way to spark people's imaginations and conversations by saying, “Well, we know this is what you should not be. You should not be late. You should not be lazy. You should not gossip. Okay? So don't do those things. What are we going to do instead and why?” And really thinking about your reputation being professional, no matter what job or career you happen to be in.

Carrie:

It's great advice.

Shea:

Yes, I have the book and I live by all 80 principles. Never wrong on any of them.

Carrie:

It might be sitting right there.

Shea:

But, you talked about some of the generational shifts. So, what have you seen? Some of the expectations in the workplace between generations.

Merry Brown:

I think you said it right there: expectations. Yeah. But one thing that I have noticed that I wonder, we call it the generation gap, but I think it's just more an expectation gap of, I see maybe younger people showing up and I don't understand why they're behaving in a certain way, but then I don't stop and say “Yeah, but how were they onboarded?” Like, “What was going on in the culture? Oh they don't know how to do this. Okay. But what is my responsibility? Oh, they don't know. They don't know.” And vice versa if I'm a younger person coming in and I think, “Well, why are they doing this and why are they doing that? And oh, they're so out of touch. They don't know this new app with this language”, and stopping and taking pause and saying, “But why does that matter? You know, whose job is to do what?” And so, a lot of it is just a failure to communicate because we think things should be different. And a lot of my work is helping people say, “This is the reality as given.” Generations are here. And if you don't have a multigenerational office, you are at a disadvantage because, well, I'm fabulous and so are you. If you have everybody just thinks the way that you do and comes from your own background, then you're only serving that part of the population. But most of us in our businesses serve all of the community. And so, we need to, for the health of our organization, learn how to work well with people of different generations and not tolerate them, but embrace it because they've got great bits of knowledge. But then also setting civility standards. How will we treat everybody here and get everybody at the table to have those conversations so that it isn't just top down, because everybody deserves to have a healthy work environment where they're treated with baseline dignity and respect.

Carrie:

That's so great. I can talk about this all day, but, since we are a financial podcast, so I would love to know what's the best financial advice you've been given?

Merry Brown:

Well, I don't know if I have been given this advice, but something that I have come to see is true is: Don't hide. Don't hide your purchases or the way in which you think about money from your significant other, your spouse. And don't hide it from yourself. Because I think when we hide, whether it's conflict or something else, it's to soothe, because we don't want to see it or we don't want to be told no or we don't want the pain of the moment. But as everybody knows, it's much more painful when we put it off. So, when we don't look at our spending habits, we are going to pay one way or the other. It might be in retirement, it might be when kids come along, but the more you're able to talk with yourself and de-escalate yourself and then with your partner, so that - there's a good chance you're going to have different spending habits or heaven forbid, you have the same spending habits if you're spendthrift. But figuring those things out and partnering because we as you all know, money can be very difficult because of people's family of origin, because, because because. So don't hide.

Carrie:

That's such great advice. And you are the first to have ever said anything like that here. So, really appreciate that take on it.

Shea:

All right. That was great advice. But if you had some extra pocket change, there's some change in your pocket, what would you spend that on?

Merry Brown:

Well, this is what I have done when I find, when you change a purse and you find, “Oh, I got ten bucks!” and you have five bucks in here, there's something about that extra money that is like this dopamine rush. “I've got this extra money!” And I look at it and I say, “Well, I'm so glad it's there for the next time that I need it.” And I am not a great saver. But maybe that's why I get this little rush when I find it. And I know it's like in these little pockets here, there. And then the Soybean comes to town in Martin in September. And I think, “Oh, I know where that cash is.” And I give kids something to go get, you know, a waffle...

Carrie:

A treat?

Merry Brown:

You know, just a treat.

Shea:

A funnel cake?

Merry Brown:

That’s it! A funnel cake! Or, it just those little treats that whenever you need them. I just love knowing that I can go get that money and do something.

Carrie:

Like saving it for a rainy day, except for not for in an emergency kind of way, but like, in a good, positive, treat way. Yes, that's fun too. Okay, well, thank you so much, Merry, for joining us today. I've really enjoyed this conversation. And we are excited to see your new book come out. And, and thank you for all that you're doing in our community.

Merry Brown:

Thank you for having me. I really enjoyed it.

Listen and Follow